From: owner-faxlist-digest@2350.org (faxlist-digest) To: faxlist-digest@monkey.org Subject: faxlist-digest V2004 #23 Reply-To: faxlist@2350.org Sender: owner-faxlist-digest@2350.org Errors-To: owner-faxlist-digest@2350.org Precedence: bulk faxlist-digest Sunday, February 22 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 023 Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) RE: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) (fax) eisblumen Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) (fax) review: magic diner Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) Re: (fax) review: magic diner (fax) Go No Go Sample Source Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) Re: (fax) eisblumen (fax) organizing a FAX collection Re: (fax) Go No Go Sample Source (fax) FA: Glitch (PW04) and 2350 Broadway (PW05) (fax) Definitive Ambient Collection 2 AW001 Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:29:31 -0800 From: Alexander Petrushko Subject: Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) I have thought about the classification issue as well. At KALX radio there's a classification system devised for this very purpose. I believe it had its roots in some formal taxonomy but has since morphed into a loose set of rules. The rule is that if the artist's name is his real name, then file it under the last name, i.e. "Lennon, John". If the artist's name is made up, treat it as a name of the project and file it 'as is', i.e. "Sven Vath". This gets really interesting with reggae artists but as long as you're consistent across the board, it works. Another rule is that if there are more than two artists involved in a project, it's a compilation filed under V/A with the album name as the second sort criteria, i.e. 'V/A - Audio'. If there are two artists involved, file it alphabetically under the name of the more alphabetically significant artist, i.e. 'Lennon/McCartney - Some 60s pop album'. Naturally since all rules are meant to be broken, my own FAX collection does just that. In fact, it breaks both of the above rules. The FAX records are only sorted WITHIN FAX but not within my entire record collection. That way, all FAX discs are on a couple of shelves next to each other. The sorting itself is done according to the logic I use to retrieve the record, i.e. Audio is filed under 'A' as opposed to under the name of the artist or V/A. Alex ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:43:53 +0100 From: "kompaktkiste" Subject: RE: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) sorting is fun... when done by: : backspine colour (not really helpful with the fax catalogue ;-) : time of first listen (not: time of release) : last time listened to or, sorting can be useful, when done in 2.5 sections with prioritizing labels (which support the 'collectable' aspect too) first section, labels sorted by release number (needed, barcode-#'s don't help much). second section, the rest by artists group or last name. classical by composer of course. second.5 compilations extra by title. for vinyl i sort strictly by label except for a few 'big catalogue' artists like the orb, underworld, zappa which leaves only 3 or 4 crates of 'unsorted' stuff. easy to browse. i'm sort of (pun!) a sorting-fetishist myself and the above works perfectly for my humble tiny collection. anyway, consistency if a fine thing, should not end in itself though. don't worry about your 'lastname' complications! just make your own rules and stick to them (which is, consistent...) > Lastly, I considered sorting by cat number (ie: PK08/01), but since I > don't have them all memorized (yet?), that would make finding things > harder. proven wrong by experience ;-) but then i never had more than 200 fax cd's at one point in time... ps. "Sven Vath" should be 'vaeth, sven' at KALX ;-) ciao, wolf. - ----://----------------------------------------------------- mailto:wolf@kompaktkiste.de http://www.kompaktkiste.de http://www.kompaktkiste.de/shop - ----://----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:28:14 -0600 (CST) From: Trevor Cordes Subject: Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) > into a loose set of rules. The rule is that if the artist's name is > his real name, then file it under the last name, i.e. "Lennon, John". > If the artist's name is made up, treat it as a name of the project and > file it 'as is' Yes, I thought this is probably the way it should be done. However, that means one has to know when it is made up or not! When one first hears about Lisa Carbon, guesses that it's a fake name and then finds out it's Atom Heart, it would be easy to take that as the artist's real name! ... you have to dig 3 levels deep to get Uwe Schmidt (sp?). However, this doesn't pose a problem for FAX (probably), except for maybe "Prof. Phartiphuckborlz" (can't believe PK let them get away with that one). > Another rule is that if there are more than two artists involved in a > project, it's a compilation filed under V/A with the album name as the > second sort criteria, i.e. 'V/A - Audio'. If there are two artists > involved, file it alphabetically under the name of the more > alphabetically significant artist, i.e. 'Lennon/McCartney - Some 60s > pop album'. Hmm, worth a thought, but I see in that 2 problems: 1. To me a "compilation" is where the artists have distinct tracks, not an album where the artists collaborate on most/all tracks (like FAX). So I'd have issues with labelling it "V/A - Audio". I bet KALX didn't have to deal with weird FAX quirks... basic rock/pop can be so much easier to catalog. 2. As for your "more alphabetically significant artist", that would seem incorrect for the situation where the less alphabetically significant artist was the main artist, with the secondary artist being a minor collaborator. Of course, you'd have to know who was more "significant" in the collaboration, but with FAX I believe the artist first listed would be most the significant contributor (ie: Inoue in Inoue/Edwards/Beail). > The FAX records are only sorted WITHIN FAX but not within my entire > record collection. That way, all FAX discs are on a couple of shelves I'll probably physically keep my FAX discs separate from my "non-FAX" collection, but they'll reside in the same database on my computer, hence the desire to have a single integrated ruleset. > next to each other. The sorting itself is done according to the logic > I use to retrieve the record, i.e. Audio is filed under 'A' as opposed > to under the name of the artist or V/A. This is not a bad idea. One could assume that "Audio" should have had a project name of "Audio", and not the weird combo "Inoue/Edwards/Beail". It's the same as "HIA/Namlook - SHADO" -- which would make more sense as "SHADO - SHADO" (dots omitted for brevity). Although, you probably wouldn't want to do that for the Move D/Namlooks or Anthony Rother, as those CD's have explicit numbering on them which implies a project name distinct from the title name. Thanks everybody for your input, I not trying to be a "nay-sayer", I'm just trying to hammer something out here. I could just make something up, but I like to keep very close to what Warren is doing on 2350.org. Perhaps if a consensus is reached it could be integrated into the site. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:31:50 -0600 (CST) From: Trevor Cordes Subject: Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) On 21 Feb, brian@lists.frickster.net wrote: > I didn't even try to organize otherwise. The best thing I can see would be to > create a very complex MySQL database that contains fields for the various quirks > of the collection, and then have lots of strange 1->many relationships, i.e., > Pete Namlook maps to any CD on which he appears... Very complex... Both Warren & I have created MySQL databases of the FAX stuff (Warren's is what drives the 2350.org site!). We took very similar approaches. FAX requires a few many-many relationships also. Still doesn't help the fundemental problem of how you translate that into physically sorting your jewel cases -- you still need to reconcile these weird artist/project name issues. :-( ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:50:26 -0500 From: micah stupak Subject: (fax) eisblumen not too many comments on this when it came out... does anyone have any thoughts? worth picking up? - --- micah stupak micah@benthic.cc www.benthic.cc benthic recordings - soundings from unexplored places ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:53:10 -0500 From: "Alan R. Lucas" Subject: Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) Me too! I just have all of the Faxes at the beginning of my "electronic" section, and then they're all just organized by Cat No. I've been thinking of rearranging my whole CD collection lately. I've been toying with the idea of doing it by label, and then by catalog within each label. Then, I thought about arranging all the CDs by year, so that there's a section of 2004, 2003, etc... but then within each year, I'd have to decide whether I want to sort strictly by artist, or by label, or what have you. My wife thinks I'm crazy to even think about reorganizing, just because she doesn't want to see all of my CDs all over the floor for however long it takes me to get this done. Regardless, I'll probably always keep the Fax stuff on its own, just because I like the way it looks altogether the way it is now. Speaking of Fax, is there anyone out there with an extra copy of Koolfang I? Or a copy they want to trade? I have the following that I'd be willing to part with: Inoue/Edwards/Beail - Audio Namlook/Ocal - Sultan Osman Namlook/Laswell - Outland 4 They're all mint. A mint Koolfang would be great, but NM will work, too. And hey, if you want to do two-fer and have Moufang's Solitaire, too, that'd be great. I just like Moufang. Thanks! Alan Quoting brian@lists.frickster.net: > The simplest way, and the way I find to be the easiest, is to keep all > FAX > releases separate from the rest of my collection. Then I simply organize > them > by serial number: > > PK 08/xxx > PS 08/xx > PW xx > then compilations, AWs, Ys, etc. > > I didn't even try to organize otherwise. The best thing I can see would > be to > create a very complex MySQL database that contains fields for the various > quirks > of the collection, and then have lots of strange 1->many relationships, > i.e., > Pete Namlook maps to any CD on which he appears... Very complex... > > I know this doesn't help you much, Trevor, but it's the best way I've > found to > organize. If I want to find all the records on which, say, Namlook > appears, I > just query my Excel spreadsheet (or in the future my database). > > -Brian > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:06:37 -0500 From: David Beardsley Subject: Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) Alan R. Lucas wrote: >Me too! I just have all of the Faxes at the beginning of my "electronic" >section, and then they're all just organized by Cat No. > >I've been thinking of rearranging my whole CD collection lately. I've been >toying with the idea of doing it by label, and then by catalog within each >label. > >Then, I thought about arranging all the CDs by year, so that there's a >section of 2004, 2003, etc... but then within each year, I'd have to decide >whether I want to sort strictly by artist, or by label, or what have you. > >My wife thinks I'm crazy to even think about reorganizing, just because she >doesn't want to see all of my CDs all over the floor for however long it >takes me to get this done. > Try chronologically, by the first time you heard it. (a tip of the hat to the film High Fidelity!) - -- * David Beardsley * microtonal guitar * http://biink.com/db ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:07:23 -0600 From: Warren Lapham Subject: Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) At 2350.org, we decided to keep list everything as it is listed on the=20= original release. Hence "Organic Cloud" but "Tetsu Inoue -- Slow and=20 Low." When an artist name is given, we classify that as a different=20 project. (Please note that although they are listed as Firstname=20 Lastname, they are alphabetized by Lastname within the other projects.)=20= We also consider each pseudonym to be a separate project -- even Atom=20= Heart and Atom=99! Personally, I keep them organized by catalog number,=20= totally separated from my other CDs. This is more out of a lack of=20 other appealing ideas than anything else. :) It also generally looks=20= more consistent, too, having all of the same-colored spines together,=20 but that may only be a factor for a certain type of individual.... Yes, it is a rather tricky matter to keep them all organized, which is=20= why we decided to present them in several different ways at 2350.org. =20= The inspiration for the site was born out of Stewart's and my own=20 struggles with getting a handle on the vastness of the catalog.... I believe Stewart keeps his totally separated & organized by project,=20 but only he could say for sure. I think you outlined everything I ever=20= thought of as far as organizing my own collection, except maybe the=20 vast 3D wireframe tree that would let me easily see the relationship=20 between different CDs, artists, and their collaborations. ;) w.= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:32:53 -0500 From: micah stupak Subject: (fax) review: magic diner [no review at 2350.org, and i really like this one, so...] apparently this album is inspired by/dedicated to metabolism. this really makes you wonder what anthony rother eats... _magic diner_ is a nine-parter that compares pretty well to rother's first for fax, _elixir of life_. whereas EoL is very much in the mechanical, deep-space school of ambient, MD has a very earthly quality, in part due to more rhythmic sequences. the sounds are very lush without sounding organic, thick basses and full pads. like a less-human, mellower version of rother's _hacker_. into its bits - pt I - one-minute intro of whooshing mechanics, cars driving by, jet engines, people walking around. pt II - five minutes of germanically funky synth patterns, nice gated reverb envelopes. pt III - one of the best on the disc. choir pads and arpeggiation, very kraftwerkian. synth string lead from 1973. doesn't do a whole heck of a lot in 11 minutes but never overstays its welcome. pt IV - comes nicely out of III. similar sequences to II, but more 1970's synth strings like III. moody and subtly epic for 5 1/2 minutes. pt V - mellotronish choir patch, a la the original "radioactivity". 2 1/2 minute interlude. pt VI - kind of has a plastikman vibe as it starts with a very low-passed mono bassline and some reverbed kick. some voice filters up - - he's german and he really wants to know what time it is. then a bit of a DSOTMIII drone lead and our friend is back, still needs to know the time. 8 1/2 minutes. pt VII - really beautiful, especially after the slightly unsettling VI. lush pads and a solo female vocal, wordless and soaring. 5 minutes of sublime. pt VIII - at 15 minutes long, the beginning sounds like it's going to build into something really epic. almost reminds me of the "big" tracks from the early _psychonavigation_ discs for the first few minutes (don't know why). instead of building, though, layers are more or less pulled away, going through some delayed percussion, synth swells and a mellow groovy sequence until we're left with a deep-space sounding, shimmering synth pad. this drops out to... pt IX - birds and a light breeze. that's it. turns out the diner we've been at is in the countryside and we've been eating on the back porch. - --- micah stupak micah@benthic.cc www.benthic.cc benthic recordings - soundings from unexplored places ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:51:01 -0600 (CST) From: Trevor Cordes Subject: Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) (BOn 21 Feb, Warren Lapham wrote: > > At 2350.org, we decided to keep list everything as it is listed on the > original release. Hence "Organic Cloud" but "Tetsu Inoue -- Slow and > Low." When an artist name is given, we classify that as a different > project. So you take the spine printing as "official" and leave it at that? Makes sense, assuming whoever decides what goes on the spine is sane and consistent and not just trying to confuse us all. > (Please note that although they are listed as Firstname > Lastname, they are alphabetized by Lastname within the other projects.) That statement prompted me to look at /project which I had never bothered with before. I see what you mean, especially with respect o Slow & Low vs. Audio. So your system allows those 2 to be together, but Organic is still far away. The stupid thing is, how do they (whoever they might be, PK, TI, AR?) seemingly arbitrarily decide that Organic Cloud is to be labelled as being by "Organic Cloud" yet Slow & Low is by "Tetsu Inoue". In a consistent situation, Slow & Low would be labelled as being by "Slow & Low", unless of course there is some other factor in there overriding this more logical choice. I cannot think of any such logical reason, so it almost seems a mistake. If it *is* unintentional, are we not goofs for following their mistakes as though they were sacrosanct? On the other hand, if Slow & Low should really be by Slow & Low, then does Audio become labelled as being by Audio? Surely that is a stupid project name! Man, is this a convoluted mess! ;-) To illustrate the potential problems: If I sort based on the /project page at 2350 (which I've attempted to do temporarily up till now), then if I want Slow & Low I would have to remember it's not under "S", but "I". I'd go to the "S" and it wouldn't be there and I might start digging around the piles of other CD's thinking I might have misplaced it... unless I remembered it was under "I". Outer Dark, SHADO and others have the same problem. I've already run into this! :-( > We also consider each pseudonym to be a separate project -- even Atom > Heart and Atom$(D"o(B! Interesting... would someone please shoot Mr Uwe Schmidt (sp?) for me? The King of pseudonyms... So that means you have 3 levels instead of 2: project->project-artist->artist? example: JetChamber -> Atom tm -> Uwe Schmidt ?? > vast 3D wireframe tree that would let me easily see the relationship > between different CDs, artists, and their collaborations. ;) Had a good laugh at that one... It looks like I'll be resigning myself to the situation and just using /project's method, especially if no one agrees with me on a better solution. Of course, it's rapidly appearing as though there IS no better solution :-) I wonder, does PK have an "official master list"? Too bad he doesn't have an "official" web site that is the Final Word on discog issues like this. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:17:47 -0600 (CST) From: Trevor Cordes Subject: Re: (fax) review: magic diner On 21 Feb, micah stupak wrote: > pt VII - really beautiful, especially after the slightly unsettling > VI. lush pads and a solo female vocal, wordless and soaring. 5 minutes > of sublime. I agree.... this song blew me away when I first heard it. The vocals aren't perfect, which makes them all the more compelling in their imperfection. Truly stunning! Expansively cinematic. Heavenly. Ends WAY too soon... AR should have made more space for this one. Strangely seems somewhat out of place on the album... but yet doesn't... hard to describe. Probably the best of the recent releases (but I don't have Dwoozle yet...) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:54:25 -0500 From: "Alan R. Lucas" Subject: (fax) Go No Go Sample Source Hi there... Just listening to Solarized, and I was wondering where Namlook got the samples on Go No Go. Sounds like some astronaut movie, but I'm not familiar with which one. Not Apollo 13, because I just saw that one last week (yes, for the first time... go easy). Later, Alan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:28:37 -0500 From: MuzikJunky Subject: Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection (Warren!) I store my collection in the order I buy 'em! Sick, ain't it? I've been doing that since 1986, when I first got a CD player. 2500+ titles later.... Peace. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:39:18 -0500 From: "jackthetab" Subject: Re: (fax) eisblumen this was my review i did. i would certainly recommend this. Krystian Schek - Eisblumen - PS 08/101 2012 - a short ambient track that enters us into the 4th dimension, on december 22nd 2012 i presume? Eisblumen - an established hypnotic beat coils around echoing space loops. the track seems a little too rushed, it does add a nice minimal "psychedelic" trance beat (145bpm). there are some short beatless interludes, but this is more for the dancefloor. Tannenwald - not your average minimal psychedelic techno. at times i am reminded of oliver lieb (-2:30) with the overlay of ambient and solid 4/4 techno. Abendrot - a simple beat with chilled ambience and quirky synth samples. November - a deeper bass beat and an addictive melody. this track is more minimal sounding. very danceable. around -4:45 a simple ambient synth layer is born and the beat stops. the beat does return shortly after however. Wake up with the Rain - some solid 4/4 techno and trance, which sounds darker than pervious tracks. the music is groovy and hypnotic. "trippy" upbeat dancefloor material. The Girl from Uzbekistan - birds, water, and techno loop. the birds and water sounds fade away and we are left with dark, minimal techno. Nuclear Island - post nuclear island. some clicky body moving techno with the distant howl of the vast wasteland. Night vs Day - more dark minimal techno that has that familiar fax sound. Herimitage - a marching sonic robotic loop fused with repetitveness. not as upbeat as previously, yet still danceable. the track is flourished with melodic experimental samples. the birds return to create the heavens and end in drone. snowGUM - probably the most accessable and "commercial" track. upbeat groovey trance which is fitting for the crowded dancefloor. you can get lost in the simple yet friendly groove. kunst und wahnsinn, jackthetab #####\ _ /##### #( )# | _( )__ | #( )# ##### | /_woof/ | ##### #" "# | ___m/I_ /_____ | #" "# # O # |____#-x.\ /++m\ /.x-#____| # O # #m.m# | /" \ ///###\\\ / "\ | #m.m# #####/ ######/ \###### \##### /___ http://www.capital.net/~soylent ___\ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "micah stupak" To: "faxfolk" Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 3:50 PM Subject: (fax) eisblumen > not too many comments on this when it came out... does anyone have any > thoughts? worth picking up? > > --- > micah stupak > micah@benthic.cc > www.benthic.cc > benthic recordings - soundings from unexplored places > > --- > + To post: ; to mail a person: > + To unsubscribe: "unsubscribe" to > + Online info at: www.hyperreal.org/fax www.2350.org > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:43:00 +0100 From: "the-other-world" Subject: (fax) organizing a FAX collection Hi, I have started organizing my collection with the software 'Music Collector' (http://www.collectorz.com), which is a very easy and efficient way to do this. You just insert the CD in your CD-drive and can get most infos, such as artist, tracks, label,... From cddb, an internet database for music. You can add any personal info you like and have all options of duing any query and sort by labels, artists, musicians, ... I can highly recommend this programm... Cheers, Joachim ############################################## # ^ # # / \ http://www.the-other-world.net # # < **> # # \~/ mailto:joachim@the-other-world.net # # =B0 # ############################################## ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 08:36:17 -0500 From: "Mike Carss" Subject: Re: (fax) Go No Go Sample Source IIRC, my brother thought it was from Armageddon. Good song... Horrible film! :P - -Mike - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan R. Lucas" To: Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 8:54 PM Subject: (fax) Go No Go Sample Source > Hi there... > > Just listening to Solarized, and I was wondering where Namlook got the > samples on Go No Go. Sounds like some astronaut movie, but I'm not familiar > with which one. Not Apollo 13, because I just saw that one last week (yes, > for the first time... go easy). > > Later, > Alan > --- > + To post: ; to mail a person: > + To unsubscribe: "unsubscribe" to > + Online info at: www.hyperreal.org/fax www.2350.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:57:23 -0000 From: "David Calvert" Subject: (fax) FA: Glitch (PW04) and 2350 Broadway (PW05) Just a few hours left on these ... Glitch (PW04) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1577&item=2596727980 2350 Broadway (PW05) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1577&item=2596727988 e-mail: dakota.boo@pop3.hiway.co.uk web page: http://home.hiway.co.uk/boo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 08:14:01 -0600 From: Trevor Cordes Subject: (fax) Definitive Ambient Collection 2 AW001 Question: if one has the Rising High version of this CD, is there any reason (besides completionistism) one needs to own the AW version? Comparing http://www.discogs.com/release/2458 http://2350.org/aw001/ the only apparent difference is AW includes a 10th track: Air 2 - Trip 8. Is that track just the same as on the original Air 2 release (with maybe just the beginning mixed into the previous track)? Is it just me, or has Namlook never really done "remixes" -- vastly different versions of tracks? The most he does is blend tracks together unchanged ala Cookbook 2, right? Thank the heavens if this is true! Also praise be to Namlook for not releasing +1(or whatever)-type reprints that force completists to buy extra crap they don't need, ala every other successful artist out there. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:32:01 -0500 From: "Alan R. Lucas" Subject: Re: (fax) organizing a FAX collection I also have this program, and it does work very well. They've made lots of improvements to the UI with new releases, and they provide those for free once you've bought the software. I will say this, though. If you have a large collection (I have probably somewhere over 2K+ CDs and vinyl), it will take a long long time and lots of dedication on your part to actually get all of the CDs entered into their database. But no longer than it would take to start any other sort of new database I guess. One of these days, I'll get around to getting my whole collection in there; it's just a matter of blocking off enough time to actually sit there and switch CDs all the time. Later, Alan Quoting the-other-world : > Hi, > > I have started organizing my collection with the software 'Music > Collector' (http://www.collectorz.com), which is a very easy and > efficient way to do this. You just insert the CD in your CD-drive and > can get most infos, such as artist, tracks, label,... From cddb, an > internet database for music. You can add any personal info you like and > have all options of duing any query and sort by labels, artists, > musicians, ... > > I can highly recommend this programm... > > Cheers, > > Joachim > > ############################################## > # ^ # > # / \ http://www.the-other-world.net # > # < **> # > # \~/ mailto:joachim@the-other-world.net # > # ° # > ############################################## > > > --- > + To post: ; to mail a person: > > + To unsubscribe: "unsubscribe" to > + Online info at: www.hyperreal.org/fax www.2350.org > ------------------------------ End of faxlist-digest V2004 #23 ******************************* --- + To post: ; to mail a person: + To unsubscribe: "unsubscribe" to + Online info at: www.faxlabel.com www.hyperreal.org/fax www.2350.org